You're not an independent nation Conan. Salmond is the Leader of the Scottish Executive, not the government. I know you support him and Scottish Independence, Conan, but you can't seriously think that he should sit aside Brown, Cameron & Clegg in a debate about the future PM of the UK? Including Farage would make more sense than Salmond.
Most English nationalists have no problem with the SNP seeing it as a role model for a future independent party in England. However a lot of English blogs are stuck in the British timewarp. Otherwise what Goodnight Vienna said.
"I don't think that Salmond should sit beside Brown, Cameron and Glegg in a debate about the future of the UK?" Scotland is part of the UK at the moment: Do you agree that GV? If the SNP get thirty MPs in this election, that will mean the END OF THE UK. It is called democracy GV.
Aye you're right Goodnight Vienna, we're still a vassal state, like all the other English possessions were. We are there to provide the mother country with spices and.....oils.
The thought of someone from the colonies sitting at a table with these English gentlemen and pretending to be their equal is too silly for words. The next thing is they'll want someone from Biafra or one of the other more far flung outposts of the empire, what? Damned bad show, don't you know! I mean at least the Farage man is English, even if he does have a bloody foreign-sounding name.
Oh, and by the way, I have a letter in my hand and the heading on it says Scottish Government, so I guess someone must have forged it.
Hi Tris...GV is in the words of my youth a cool dude. But It's like trying to cut down an oak using a pair of nail scissors. The English are saturated with stories about how we Scots are Buckfast supping, Benefit grabbing, agressive beggars on the tube.
You're wrong Conan. We're fed nothing of the sort 'down here' - all we see is the breaking of a Union that has seen us through 403 yrs. If you want total independence then I wish you well but pls be sure it's for the right reasons. I've never understood why Scotland would prefer to go into the EU rather than staying in a British union.
I'm not 'an oak' Conan, just someone who wants to understand the SNP's embrace of the EU.
As for Salmond and the tv debates, my comment still stands - maybe a second division game can be arranged between the SNP & the English Democrats?
No there's nothing at all undemocratic about having a televised debate and not inviting the leader of the most popular political party in Scotland to join it. Simple solution, don't broadcast it in Scotland.
DV, 403 years, you're talking about the Act of Crowns, the SNP intend to retain Brenda Windsor, it's the 1707 Act of Union we wish to end.
It's not an equal union. We have 50+ MPs, you have 550+. You own us, and we are ignored. If every single of one our MPs voted in a particular way, a handful of your MPs could out-vote us.
Second division? The underdogs? You have no idea how angry that makes me. How unequal and second rate" you make me feel. No idea at all. You reinforce what I have long thought.
I like England, and my favourite person in the world is English, but I don't want to be owned by them, no more than I want to be owned by the French, the Italians, or the Icelanders much though I love their countries.
If Conan says so, then you must be a "cool dude", but your "second division" insult to our First Minister and thus to us, is hard to swallow.
2nd division isn't meant as an insult any more than it wd be to UKIP (4th largest UK political party?). I'm trying to be realistic here.
Tris - no-one wants to be 'owned' by anyone, least of all another nation. At least you have your own Scottish Executive; the English have nothing.
The position of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland isn't open to anyone other than Clegg, Cameron or Brown. That's what the proposed tv debate is all about.
It might not have been intended as an insult, but it sure came over as one.
Being referred to as second division tends to have that effect on people, especially when it's perfectly true.
The fact is that this debate will amount to a party political broadcast in an election in which the SNP is standing in every Scottish constituency. Why would it be fair for the three English parties to have their policies examined in a high level debate on our television (we pay for the BBC too), when the party that polls currently show have the highest number of potential votes would be excluded from participation.
This party is important here GV, it's not some fifth rate little group with no MPs. It forms the Scottish Government (and yes it's a government; it makes laws) and it has control of a fair percentage of local councils.
But it doesn't count becuase its not big in England and that's all that matters. We know it's all that matters. No one in London gives a second thought to what we want.
I have no idea why you don't have an English parliament. It's been discussed often enough. It's seems to me to be an indication that Britian is England and there is a British Parliament so why would you need an English one as well.
As usual with anything done in the UK devolution was a half arsed mess, organised by people who live in another world from the one inhabited by the average person.
Of course it was half-arsed, Tris - like everything this government has done to screw up the UK. It's not our fault that Americans still refer to us as 'England'.
Sort out your own taxation then and abolish the Barnett Formula. As Conan knows, I'll be sorry to see the UK divided like this.
You're not going to get independence because Salmond is pro-EU - frying pan and fire come to mind. But if that's what you want then good luck to you, believe me you'll need it in years to come.
I want it more than anything else. I fail to see why I should regret it. As a commentator on my blog has pointed out (he's Irish), although there are hard times there he's never heard one person suggest that they wished that they had stayed with England. Countries of 5 million are perfectly capable of getting along. There are dozens of them in the world that manage without the guiding hand of England.
It's not only the Americans who refer to the UK as England. The English do too. Listen to Radio 4 or read social commentators like Peter Hitchins.
In Paris I was asked where in England Scotland was.. L'Ecosse...c'est bien dans le nord de l'Angleterre, non?"
Alex Salmond isn't the SNP GV. He's a good guy, but he isn't everyone, and after independence we can work out whether or not we want to apply to be in the EU, or EFTA or Nato and whether we want your royal family. If it's Charlie by that time the answer's sure to be NO.
Scotland isn't Greater Britain. We are NOT an extension of England.An England soccer game being relegated to the internet raises giggles not outrage here.
Get stuck right in Tris - a few home truths are in order. I like GV's blog - but like many of his countrymen - he sports the arrogance of the dominant power. He poses like a big brother humouring the little chap. Secure in his own opinion of himself he presents as, at once, urbane and sentimental, while at the same time, sarcastic and condescending.
But in this I think he is correct - independence within the EU is no independence at all. It is an oxymoron.
Apologies - I wasn't trying to suggest there was a masculine quality to your posts that led me to assume you were male - it was just lazy thinking on my part. Ye awright noo hen?
"I like GV's blog - but like many of her countrymen - she sports the arrogance of the dominant power. She poses like a big sister humouring the little chap. Secure in her own opinion of herself, she presents as, at once, urbane and sentimental, while at the same time, sarcastic and condescending."
Corrected for gender - diz it still scan dae ye think?
'Scotland only' politicians can have a "second division" debate with some party that's never had an MP and as far as I know doesn't have a councillor. This when the SNP is the largest party in the parliament and forms the government. It makes my point. The English see the SNP as some idiotic fringe party because in England that's what the English Democratic Party is. They forget that they don't need an ENP, because they have the Tories and Labour and the Liberals.
And then a partonising... "I hope you don't regret it" as if the remark were being addressed to a 15 year old having their first cigarette; as if somehow the Scots couldn't do what the Danes, or Finns or Swedes or yes, Norwegians do; as if somehow they are too stupid to go out on their own without England to look after them.
Helensburgh's louche lounge singer and bon vivant, Jack Buchanan wrote the musical 'Goodnight Vienna'. As it toured around these Islands he was apt to phone around various theatres and see how the ticket sales were going. One driech Friday night he got hold of the manager of a Bolton music hall and enquired how sales were doing. The manager replied, " If they don't pick up soon lad, it'll be Goodnight bloody Bolton."
GV will your opinion be swayed that now Labour MP Mark Lazarowicz agrees that the debate should be open to the leader of the most popular party in Scotland?
If Goodnight Vienna is your idea of the "most liberal English thinker" then a higher power help us all. I think the condescending reference to Executive, not Government, and the Second Division speaks volumes for her liberality. Where-abouts do you rank Kelvin MacKenzie on your list of English liberals?
I imagine that most of the disinclination to have Salmond debate with the English leaders is the sure and certain knowledge that he would eclipse them with his debating ability.
Week after week he wipes the floor with Tavish and that wee bloke that seems to speak for the Labour Party in Scotland, you know who I mean, the chubby one, not the skinny one?). He even makes Ms Goldie look silly.
In the end the English would be wanting to vote for him too
The old Alzheimer playing up Eh!
ReplyDelete'really big hammer and chisel' and you finally want to change your underpants as well
old age gets us all in the end
Eh?
ReplyDeleteThe really big hammer and chisel is to get through reeeally thick skulls Niko...like English Tories and Scots Labourites.
Excuse me Niko, it was the "again" in the title I see.
ReplyDeleteCurses.
You're not an independent nation Conan. Salmond is the Leader of the Scottish Executive, not the government. I know you support him and Scottish Independence, Conan, but you can't seriously think that he should sit aside Brown, Cameron & Clegg in a debate about the future PM of the UK? Including Farage would make more sense than Salmond.
ReplyDeleteMost English nationalists have no problem with the SNP seeing it as a role model for a future independent party in England. However a lot of English blogs are stuck in the British timewarp. Otherwise what Goodnight Vienna said.
ReplyDeleteThankyou for responding GV.
ReplyDelete"I don't think that Salmond should sit beside Brown, Cameron and Glegg in a debate about the future of the UK?"
Scotland is part of the UK at the moment: Do you agree that GV?
If the SNP get thirty MPs in this election, that will mean the END OF THE UK.
It is called democracy GV.
Thankyou for responding Quiet man
ReplyDeleteAye you're right Goodnight Vienna, we're still a vassal state, like all the other English possessions were. We are there to provide the mother country with spices and.....oils.
ReplyDeleteThe thought of someone from the colonies sitting at a table with these English gentlemen and pretending to be their equal is too silly for words. The next thing is they'll want someone from Biafra or one of the other more far flung outposts of the empire, what? Damned bad show, don't you know! I mean at least the Farage man is English, even if he does have a bloody foreign-sounding name.
Oh, and by the way, I have a letter in my hand and the heading on it says Scottish Government, so I guess someone must have forged it.
Hi Tris...GV is in the words of my youth a cool dude.
ReplyDeleteBut
It's like trying to cut down an oak using a pair of nail scissors.
The English are saturated with stories about how we Scots are Buckfast supping, Benefit grabbing, agressive beggars on the tube.
You're wrong Conan. We're fed nothing of the sort 'down here' - all we see is the breaking of a Union that has seen us through 403 yrs. If you want total independence then I wish you well but pls be sure it's for the right reasons. I've never understood why Scotland would prefer to go into the EU rather than staying in a British union.
ReplyDeleteI'm not 'an oak' Conan, just someone who wants to understand the SNP's embrace of the EU.
As for Salmond and the tv debates, my comment still stands - maybe a second division game can be arranged between the SNP & the English Democrats?
No there's nothing at all undemocratic about having a televised debate and not inviting the leader of the most popular political party in Scotland to join it. Simple solution, don't broadcast it in Scotland.
ReplyDeleteDV, 403 years, you're talking about the Act of Crowns, the SNP intend to retain Brenda Windsor, it's the 1707 Act of Union we wish to end.
GV...
ReplyDeleteSecond division?
And you wonder why we want to be out of the UK.
It's not an equal union. We have 50+ MPs, you have 550+. You own us, and we are ignored. If every single of one our MPs voted in a particular way, a handful of your MPs could out-vote us.
Second division? The underdogs? You have no idea how angry that makes me. How unequal and second rate" you make me feel. No idea at all. You reinforce what I have long thought.
I like England, and my favourite person in the world is English, but I don't want to be owned by them, no more than I want to be owned by the French, the Italians, or the Icelanders much though I love their countries.
If Conan says so, then you must be a "cool dude", but your "second division" insult to our First Minister and thus to us, is hard to swallow.
Sorry to go off on one on your blog Conan. :)
2nd division isn't meant as an insult any more than it wd be to UKIP (4th largest UK political party?). I'm trying to be realistic here.
ReplyDeleteTris - no-one wants to be 'owned' by anyone, least of all another nation. At least you have your own Scottish Executive; the English have nothing.
The position of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland isn't open to anyone other than Clegg, Cameron or Brown. That's what the proposed tv debate is all about.
GV:
ReplyDeleteIt might not have been intended as an insult, but it sure came over as one.
Being referred to as second division tends to have that effect on people, especially when it's perfectly true.
The fact is that this debate will amount to a party political broadcast in an election in which the SNP is standing in every Scottish constituency. Why would it be fair for the three English parties to have their policies examined in a high level debate on our television (we pay for the BBC too), when the party that polls currently show have the highest number of potential votes would be excluded from participation.
This party is important here GV, it's not some fifth rate little group with no MPs. It forms the Scottish Government (and yes it's a government; it makes laws) and it has control of a fair percentage of local councils.
But it doesn't count becuase its not big in England and that's all that matters. We know it's all that matters. No one in London gives a second thought to what we want.
I have no idea why you don't have an English parliament. It's been discussed often enough. It's seems to me to be an indication that Britian is England and there is a British Parliament so why would you need an English one as well.
As usual with anything done in the UK devolution was a half arsed mess, organised by people who live in another world from the one inhabited by the average person.
Of course it was half-arsed, Tris - like everything this government has done to screw up the UK. It's not our fault that Americans still refer to us as 'England'.
ReplyDeleteSort out your own taxation then and abolish the Barnett Formula. As Conan knows, I'll be sorry to see the UK divided like this.
You're not going to get independence because Salmond is pro-EU - frying pan and fire come to mind. But if that's what you want then good luck to you, believe me you'll need it in years to come.
I want it more than anything else. I fail to see why I should regret it. As a commentator on my blog has pointed out (he's Irish), although there are hard times there he's never heard one person suggest that they wished that they had stayed with England. Countries of 5 million are perfectly capable of getting along. There are dozens of them in the world that manage without the guiding hand of England.
ReplyDeleteIt's not only the Americans who refer to the UK as England. The English do too. Listen to Radio 4 or read social commentators like Peter Hitchins.
In Paris I was asked where in England Scotland was.. L'Ecosse...c'est bien dans le nord de l'Angleterre, non?"
Alex Salmond isn't the SNP GV. He's a good guy, but he isn't everyone, and after independence we can work out whether or not we want to apply to be in the EU, or EFTA or Nato and whether we want your royal family. If it's Charlie by that time the answer's sure to be NO.
Excellent posts folks.
ReplyDeleteGV is one of the most liberal English thinkers I have come across...
...Yet he can't grasp the point.
ReplyDeleteScotland isn't Greater Britain. We are NOT an extension of England.An England soccer game being relegated to the internet raises giggles not outrage here.
Get stuck right in Tris - a few home truths are in order. I like GV's blog - but like many of his countrymen - he sports the arrogance of the dominant power. He poses like a big brother humouring the little chap. Secure in his own opinion of himself he presents as, at once, urbane and sentimental, while at the same time, sarcastic and condescending.
ReplyDeleteBut in this I think he is correct - independence within the EU is no independence at all. It is an oxymoron.
Conan:
ReplyDelete"An England soccer game being relegated to the internet raises giggles not outrage here."
Giggles? Don't you mean sniggers?
Aye - Ah feel like stirrin the night lads.
ReplyDelete'O wad some Power the giftie gie us. To see oursels as ithers see us!'
ReplyDeleteJust one small point, as Subrosa would tell you, I'm a she, not a he.
Thanks Conan.
Apologies - I wasn't trying to suggest there was a masculine quality to your posts that led me to assume you were male - it was just lazy thinking on my part. Ye awright noo hen?
ReplyDelete"I like GV's blog - but like many of her countrymen - she sports the arrogance of the dominant power. She poses like a big sister humouring the little chap. Secure in her own opinion of herself, she presents as, at once, urbane and sentimental, while at the same time, sarcastic and condescending."
ReplyDeleteCorrected for gender - diz it still scan dae ye think?
Yes Scunnert. I find the posts condescending.
ReplyDelete'Scotland only' politicians can have a "second division" debate with some party that's never had an MP and as far as I know doesn't have a councillor. This when the SNP is the largest party in the parliament and forms the government. It makes my point. The English see the SNP as some idiotic fringe party because in England that's what the English Democratic Party is. They forget that they don't need an ENP, because they have the Tories and Labour and the Liberals.
And then a partonising... "I hope you don't regret it" as if the remark were being addressed to a 15 year old having their first cigarette; as if somehow the Scots couldn't do what the Danes, or Finns or Swedes or yes, Norwegians do; as if somehow they are too stupid to go out on their own without England to look after them.
Second rate nation? I think not.
Sorry GV, word association:Goodnight Vienna= Vienna was Rigby's cat= you became Leonard Rossiter ;¬)
ReplyDelete"Sniggers" is more appropriate, true Scunnert.
Helensburgh's louche lounge singer and bon vivant, Jack Buchanan wrote the musical 'Goodnight Vienna'. As it toured around these Islands he was apt to phone around various theatres and see how the ticket sales were going. One driech Friday night he got hold of the manager of a Bolton music hall and enquired how sales were doing. The manager replied, " If they don't pick up soon lad, it'll be Goodnight bloody Bolton."
ReplyDeleteGV will your opinion be swayed that now Labour MP Mark Lazarowicz agrees that the debate should be open to the leader of the most popular party in Scotland?
http://marklazarowicz.blogspot.com/2009/10/no-reason-to-run-from-debate.html
Well as long as it's goodnight England and goodbye, I'll be happy!
ReplyDeleteConan,
ReplyDeleteIf Goodnight Vienna is your idea of the "most liberal English thinker" then a higher power help us all. I think the condescending reference to Executive, not Government, and the Second Division speaks volumes for her liberality. Where-abouts do you rank Kelvin MacKenzie on your list of English liberals?
Brownlie, it was on past performance.
ReplyDeleteWhen I thought she was a guy.
I imagine that most of the disinclination to have Salmond debate with the English leaders is the sure and certain knowledge that he would eclipse them with his debating ability.
ReplyDeleteWeek after week he wipes the floor with Tavish and that wee bloke that seems to speak for the Labour Party in Scotland, you know who I mean, the chubby one, not the skinny one?). He even makes Ms Goldie look silly.
In the end the English would be wanting to vote for him too
Conan,
ReplyDeleteI know what you mean, my uncle Mary fooled us for years.